16 April 2013
Alok Sharma welcomes the introduction of an education programme against caste discrimination which will be supported by leading community organisations and secures a undertaking from the Government not to rule out legislation should the Equality and Human Rights Commission recommend it.
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Alok Sharma: I will restrict my comments to the discussion of caste discrimination. As I said in my intervention on the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), I think we can all agree that caste discrimination is wrong and abhorrent, as is any form of discrimination. I welcome the fact that the Government are making a real effort, taking the issue seriously and putting in place a programme of education.
I hope that the hon. Member for Streatham would agree that, before introducing legislation, we should ensure that there is an evidence base for doing so. As I am sure he will be aware, the NIESR report was incredibly comprehensive. As I understand it, NIESR approached CasteWatch UK and Voice of Dalit International and looked back at cases that were up to 10 years old, yet it came up with a relatively low volume of caste-related incidents. I have no wish to trivialise any of those incidents, and clearly they were incredibly hurtful to the individuals involved, but I will just make the point that, ultimately, if we are to introduce legislation, we need to ensure that there is a broad evidence base for doing so. I understand that 32 people were interviewed for the NIESR report and 23 were used as case studies. Those 23 people reported 36 separate caste-related incidents.
Mr Umunna: I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman, but I want to ask him two questions. Does he accept that caste discrimination is going on and, if he does, does he agree that the fact that it might be quite restricted should not preclude us taking action to protect the small number who are subject to it?
Alok Sharma: I have referred to the NIESR report, and clearly there is evidence that such discrimination is going on, and ultimately we need to ensure that there are remedies for it. As I was about to say, nearly half of the 36 incidents discussed are not covered by the area of equality legislation. Indeed, for many others there is scope to find the other remedies available.
Dr Wollaston: Does my hon. Friend not also accept that, because the chances of a successful prosecution are small, individuals are less likely to come forward and report incidents?
Alok Sharma: That might indeed be the case. I have been a Member of Parliament for only three years—many Members have been here far longer—and I represent a constituency whose make-up means it is a microcosm of Britain, but in those three years not a single constituent has come to talk with me about being subject to caste discrimination. People have come to talk about other forms of discrimination, but certainly not caste discrimination.
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman explain to me the relevance of the number of constituents who have come forward to talk with him, or with anyone else? Surely a few cases means a few cases too many. If we base our understanding of discrimination on numbers, we will not get very far.
Alok Sharma: I understand the sentiment the hon. Lady expresses, but is she suggesting that the Government should legislate to protect people from every conceivable form of discrimination? We know that class discrimination exists, as do other forms of discrimination, but we follow other approaches for those, rather than legislation.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): Is my hon. Friend not concerned that most ordinary, sensible people probably believe that caste discrimination is already illegal and that if we do not go ahead with this, we will be sending out a message that it is acceptable and that claims against it are not supported by the law?
Alok Sharma: Of course it is unacceptable. As I said earlier, any form of discrimination is unacceptable, but we need to ensure that the remedies we have available are used, and ultimately there has to be an evidence base for legislation.
Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): If a carer was to refuse to care for an individual because they were of a lower caste, how does the hon. Gentleman think that would be remedied?
Alok Sharma: I took part in a debate on Radio 5 live this morning, and that was one of the examples that came up. Clearly it is unacceptable. I do not know the details of the case, and I do not know whether there is a remedy under workplace legislation, but, to continue with the theme, I think that we need to ensure that there is an evidence base. I welcome the work that the Government are proposing on education. One of the points made by a caller to the Radio 5 live debate this morning was that much of the time employers do not understand caste discrimination. That could form part of the education process. As I understand it, certainly based on my reading of the debate in the other place, the Government have not closed their mind to legislation. They said that an evidence base is needed and that additional work is being undertaken.
John Hemming: Does my hon. Friend accept that were the Government motion to pass, this issue would not return to the House of Lords and could not be subject to a further amendment, but it is possible to deal with it through a statutory instrument? There is general agreement that the Lords proposal is not an acceptable solution that would solve the problem properly.
Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. As the Minister said, this is a complex issue and there is not necessarily a common view about how we need to deal with it. That is why the proposal to have education as a first step is absolutely right. I welcome the fact that Talk for a Change will be running the—
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that before the Race Relations Act 1976 many fewer race relations cases, if any, were taken through the courts, but after the law was passed people had the confidence to take their cases further?
Alok Sharma: I am pleased that we have come a long way from that time. We live in a modern society, and that is entirely appropriate.
As I understand it from the debate in the other place—I am sure that the Minister will respond to this—the Government’s mind is not closed on legislation. The fact that work is going to be done by the Equality and Human Rights Commission should also be welcomed. This is a very complex issue, and it would be unfortunate if we were to follow a route of introducing legislation without having the evidence base for it.
My final point, which was made by a caller this morning, is how much of an issue this is from the perspective of those who are second, third or fourth generation and were born and brought up in this country. I do not define myself by my caste and I suspect that there are millions like me up and down the country. I will therefore support the Government’s motion.
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| Parliament TV
Earlier intervention in the same debate
Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman and I think all of us are united in believing that any form of discrimination—caste or any other form—is entirely wrong. It is interesting to reflect that the hon. Gentleman is talking about this issue in 2013, yet the Labour party was in power—I know the hon. Gentleman was not here then—for 13 years. Did this issue not come up at any time over 13 years and, if so, why did the Labour party not bring forward any proposals at the time? The Labour party should welcome the fact that this Government are the first to put forward an education programme to deal with the issue.
Mr Umunna: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but we sought to deal with the issue through the Equality Act 2010 and then by providing for further action to be taken thereafter. It is not fair for him to say that we took insufficient action during our time in government, but we needed to allow time for the communities concerned to adjust and to provide an opportunity for the education which he talks about. Despite the time that has passed—the Act was passed back in 2010—it is clear that more still needs to happen.
| Hansard
| Parliament TV
Alok Sharma: I will restrict my comments to the discussion of caste discrimination. As I said in my intervention on the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), I think we can all agree that caste discrimination is wrong and abhorrent, as is any form of discrimination. I welcome the fact that the Government are making a real effort, taking the issue seriously and putting in place a programme of education.
I hope that the hon. Member for Streatham would agree that, before introducing legislation, we should ensure that there is an evidence base for doing so. As I am sure he will be aware, the NIESR report was incredibly comprehensive. As I understand it, NIESR approached CasteWatch UK and Voice of Dalit International and looked back at cases that were up to 10 years old, yet it came up with a relatively low volume of caste-related incidents. I have no wish to trivialise any of those incidents, and clearly they were incredibly hurtful to the individuals involved, but I will just make the point that, ultimately, if we are to introduce legislation, we need to ensure that there is a broad evidence base for doing so. I understand that 32 people were interviewed for the NIESR report and 23 were used as case studies. Those 23 people reported 36 separate caste-related incidents.
Mr Umunna: I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman, but I want to ask him two questions. Does he accept that caste discrimination is going on and, if he does, does he agree that the fact that it might be quite restricted should not preclude us taking action to protect the small number who are subject to it?
Alok Sharma: I have referred to the NIESR report, and clearly there is evidence that such discrimination is going on, and ultimately we need to ensure that there are remedies for it. As I was about to say, nearly half of the 36 incidents discussed are not covered by the area of equality legislation. Indeed, for many others there is scope to find the other remedies available.
Dr Wollaston: Does my hon. Friend not also accept that, because the chances of a successful prosecution are small, individuals are less likely to come forward and report incidents?
Alok Sharma: That might indeed be the case. I have been a Member of Parliament for only three years—many Members have been here far longer—and I represent a constituency whose make-up means it is a microcosm of Britain, but in those three years not a single constituent has come to talk with me about being subject to caste discrimination. People have come to talk about other forms of discrimination, but certainly not caste discrimination.
Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman explain to me the relevance of the number of constituents who have come forward to talk with him, or with anyone else? Surely a few cases means a few cases too many. If we base our understanding of discrimination on numbers, we will not get very far.
Alok Sharma: I understand the sentiment the hon. Lady expresses, but is she suggesting that the Government should legislate to protect people from every conceivable form of discrimination? We know that class discrimination exists, as do other forms of discrimination, but we follow other approaches for those, rather than legislation.
Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): Is my hon. Friend not concerned that most ordinary, sensible people probably believe that caste discrimination is already illegal and that if we do not go ahead with this, we will be sending out a message that it is acceptable and that claims against it are not supported by the law?
Alok Sharma: Of course it is unacceptable. As I said earlier, any form of discrimination is unacceptable, but we need to ensure that the remedies we have available are used, and ultimately there has to be an evidence base for legislation.
Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): If a carer was to refuse to care for an individual because they were of a lower caste, how does the hon. Gentleman think that would be remedied?
Alok Sharma: I took part in a debate on Radio 5 live this morning, and that was one of the examples that came up. Clearly it is unacceptable. I do not know the details of the case, and I do not know whether there is a remedy under workplace legislation, but, to continue with the theme, I think that we need to ensure that there is an evidence base. I welcome the work that the Government are proposing on education. One of the points made by a caller to the Radio 5 live debate this morning was that much of the time employers do not understand caste discrimination. That could form part of the education process. As I understand it, certainly based on my reading of the debate in the other place, the Government have not closed their mind to legislation. They said that an evidence base is needed and that additional work is being undertaken.
John Hemming: Does my hon. Friend accept that were the Government motion to pass, this issue would not return to the House of Lords and could not be subject to a further amendment, but it is possible to deal with it through a statutory instrument? There is general agreement that the Lords proposal is not an acceptable solution that would solve the problem properly.
Alok Sharma: My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. As the Minister said, this is a complex issue and there is not necessarily a common view about how we need to deal with it. That is why the proposal to have education as a first step is absolutely right. I welcome the fact that Talk for a Change will be running the—
Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that before the Race Relations Act 1976 many fewer race relations cases, if any, were taken through the courts, but after the law was passed people had the confidence to take their cases further?
Alok Sharma: I am pleased that we have come a long way from that time. We live in a modern society, and that is entirely appropriate.
As I understand it from the debate in the other place—I am sure that the Minister will respond to this—the Government’s mind is not closed on legislation. The fact that work is going to be done by the Equality and Human Rights Commission should also be welcomed. This is a very complex issue, and it would be unfortunate if we were to follow a route of introducing legislation without having the evidence base for it.
My final point, which was made by a caller this morning, is how much of an issue this is from the perspective of those who are second, third or fourth generation and were born and brought up in this country. I do not define myself by my caste and I suspect that there are millions like me up and down the country. I will therefore support the Government’s motion.
| Hansard
| Parliament TV
Earlier intervention in the same debate
Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman and I think all of us are united in believing that any form of discrimination—caste or any other form—is entirely wrong. It is interesting to reflect that the hon. Gentleman is talking about this issue in 2013, yet the Labour party was in power—I know the hon. Gentleman was not here then—for 13 years. Did this issue not come up at any time over 13 years and, if so, why did the Labour party not bring forward any proposals at the time? The Labour party should welcome the fact that this Government are the first to put forward an education programme to deal with the issue.
Mr Umunna: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but we sought to deal with the issue through the Equality Act 2010 and then by providing for further action to be taken thereafter. It is not fair for him to say that we took insufficient action during our time in government, but we needed to allow time for the communities concerned to adjust and to provide an opportunity for the education which he talks about. Despite the time that has passed—the Act was passed back in 2010—it is clear that more still needs to happen.
| Hansard
